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Post by arkhuang88 on Feb 25, 2015 13:49:36 GMT
I have a proposal for a tournament format that is inspired by the “January Weekend Tourney” idea. It is designed to be a short and concise tournament that takes place on a single day. I have included a graphic to accompany this post and I believe it sums up the format very handily. Below are some notes on the format including the theory crafting around its duration; its pros and cons; and the suggestion of point/stats system that allows future tournaments to be organized more easily. Format Overview
TL;DR: Four teams duke it out in a best-of-three single elimination tournament. A third place match is also included. Four teams are seeded into a single elimination bracket. Each series played is a best of three with the winners advancing forward and the losers being eliminated. However, a third place match will also be held in order to determine ultimate placing. The opening series are played simultaneously, and so are the finals and third place decider. This kind of schedule amounts for an approximate time of 6 hours and 30 minutes of game time and lobby time. Please note that breaks, for instance lunch, are not included in this estimation. Also note that teams will be made through some form of balancing just like the current January Tourney or following a method I will discuss further down in this post. Duration Theory Crafting
TL;DR: (10+16+35)x3x2 = 366 minutes or 6 hours and 6 minutes. When coming up with this tournament I was fully aware of how long a series of DotA tends to be. My aim was to make this tournament take place over a day or 10 hours to be exact. Through some average calculations I was pleasantly surprised to find that the total game time could be much less. Four teams in a single elimination tournament give us two rounds of matches; essentially the semi-finals and the finals. We can split total time in half if we play all games simultaneously in each round. I started with drafting phase of Captain’s Mode. If both teams use all the time given to them then the full duration of the drafting phase is 15 minutes and 20 seconds. I rounded this up to 16 minutes. Following this I looked up the average match length online and factored in the expected skill level of the participants of the tournament in order to settle on 35 minutes per game. I then multiplied the sum of drafting and game length by three to get the max duration of a Bo3. I also decided to add 10 minutes of lobbying time. This amounts to a total time of 6 hours and 6 minutes across the whole tournament. I also redid the calculation with each game being 70 minutes long and came up with the max of 9 hours and 36 minutes. Pros and Cons
TL;DR: More frequency in tournaments means more playing, but single elimination is still a downer. Pros: - Tournament can take place in a single day (6.5 hours).
- All teams play a similar amount of games.
- Requires a minimum of two admins per round.
- Short duration means tournaments can be played more frequently.
Cons: - No round robin.
- Single elimination.
- Only four teams get to play.
- Players can’t watch each other’s games.
- I’m not sure if you can even do that with private lobbies anyway.
Notes: - The small amount of teams and games played is definitely a detriment, but this is covered by the short duration of the tournament. This allows for more tournaments to be held more frequently, and thus allows for more games over a longer period of time. In the same way, more players get to play.
- The single elimination format can discourage a lot of players when it comes to gunning for the prize money, but it can also invigorate them to try their hardest since they only have one shot. If a prize is the only motivator then I have no solution to this downer, but I have thought up of a system that I will elaborate on below.
Possible Point System
TL;DR: Players get points based on the team performance in tourney. Makes balancing and seeding easier long term. This is a little idea that is geared towards player and tournament balancing, but can also serve as motivation for player to win every match possible. It is a simple point system. We want any noob or pro to be able to come into this tournament and have a fun, but also fair, fight. We can use mmr and total game time to decide teams, but there are other ways. For each placing that a team gets in the tournament, a corresponding amount of points will be given to each player. For instance, the first place players will each receive 4 points; the second place players receive 3 points; and the rest is simple. Now we’ve got a bunch of players with arbitrary number attached to them, perfect. Players will bring their points to the next tournament, should they choose to join, and are balanced into teams accordingly. It’s a simple process of averaging really, but instead of using two variables you just use points. Now players can strive to get more points by placing higher, but the only way to do that is by having your team win. Therefore, it encourages teamwork which is the nature of DotA. This system can also be good for guild interaction, as you can be sorted into teams with players you’ve never played with before. Since role preference isn’t taken into account in the sorting system, it also promotes players to try new roles. It also makes balancing stand-ins easier as you just have to find one with similar points. Summary TL;DR: One day tournament over 7 hours is good as more tournaments can be held. By sacrificing double eliminations we get long term benefit. Discussion is hugely appreciated! Attachments:
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Post by ursinity on Feb 25, 2015 21:27:56 GMT
I think this is a great idea for a format change, it's clear that there are issues in the current format due to the length and amount of people involved. Having a rigid structure will be difficult for some people, however overall it'll make for a better, simpler tournament for the majority of folks. It's much easier for sign-ups too to say "Tournament is saturday March X from 10:00am EST to 6:00pm EST (for example)" and have people sign-up based on whether or not they can come to that specific time instead of having people sign-up and then never be able to come to a match or have ridiculously complicated scheduling issues which inconvenience 9 other people and, to lesser effect, the entire rest of the tournament. The point system is interesting as well for future tournaments, similar to how leagues work with separate ELO systems based on win/loss in the league instead of public MMR. I'm sure there are changes that could be made to this proposed format that may work out better but I think it's a great jumping-off point for a discussion on future tournament formatting. Casual inhouse plans could benefit from a schedule like this too, but that's a whole different discussion.
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Post by fafnir on Feb 26, 2015 3:42:01 GMT
I think this is a great idea for a format change, it's clear that there are issues in the current format due to the length and amount of people involved. Having a rigid structure will be difficult for some people, however overall it'll make for a better, simpler tournament for the majority of folks. It's much easier for sign-ups too to say "Tournament is saturday March X from 10:00am EST to 6:00pm EST (for example)" and have people sign-up based on whether or not they can come to that specific time instead of having people sign-up and then never be able to come to a match or have ridiculously complicated scheduling issues which inconvenience 9 other people and, to lesser effect, the entire rest of the tournament. The point system is interesting as well for future tournaments, similar to how leagues work with separate ELO systems based on win/loss in the league instead of public MMR. I'm sure there are changes that could be made to this proposed format that may work out better but I think it's a great jumping-off point for a discussion on future tournament formatting. Casual inhouse plans could benefit from a schedule like this too, but that's a whole different discussion. Have to have someone hold feet to a fire with a rigid schedule, otherwise things just won't get done. Didn't help that Vix had his PC blow up I believe. I do like the one day format in a way. Though not sure if I'd want to even do it. Multiple Bo3 in a single day doesn't really appeal to me.
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Post by joythief on Feb 26, 2015 5:03:34 GMT
I couldn't commit to that timetable, but I can see how it would work better for people that don't have 2 little kids. I think it's a great idea and totally worth a shot.
Regardless of what we do as far as formatting, we've all realized that strict scheduling has to be part of the deal. Allowing everyone to schedule their own games didn't work due to timezone differences, school/work schedules etc.
Honestly, I like how AD2L runs things. Matches are played Thursday/Friday evenings. They are prescheduled, but can be moved if both team captains agree. If your team isn't there within 15 minutes of the scheduled time, it's GG.
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Post by arkhuang88 on Feb 26, 2015 10:18:25 GMT
Thanks for the current feedback. I was honestly expecting more hate. In fact I don't want you guys to hold back if you see anything that irks you about the format.
So far rigidity is coming up as a major issue, both as a good thing and a bad one. I like to think of it more like professionalism than rigidity. Sure you're setting things in stone, but you're also being very fair whilst doing that. Having a sloppy schedule and being lenient with timetables can put everyone back. By being firm in our format we give our contestants the freedom to choose their preferred dates and times as well as being able to rely on us (the administration) to not get sloppy. The biggest thing that irked me with the current format was that it was poorly administrated. You read the terms on the registration page, you sign up, and it turns out none of those things you signed up for ended up staying true.
Professionalism is something will help you not just in tournament administration, but in everything it takes to make a good guild into a great one.
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Post by ursinity on Feb 27, 2015 3:54:15 GMT
Thanks for the current feedback. I was honestly expecting more hate. In fact I don't want you guys to hold back if you see anything that irks you about the format. So far rigidity is coming up as a major issue, both as a good thing and a bad one. I like to think of it more like professionalism than rigidity. Sure you're setting things in stone, but you're also being very fair whilst doing that. Having a sloppy schedule and being lenient with timetables can put everyone back. By being firm in our format we give our contestants the freedom to choose their preferred dates and times as well as being able to rely on us (the administration) to not get sloppy. The biggest thing that irked me with the current format was that it was poorly administrated. You read the terms on the registration page, you sign up, and it turns out none of those things you signed up for ended up staying true. Professionalism is something will help you not just in tournament administration, but in everything it takes to make a good guild into a great one. basically it comes down to forced professionalism with clear consequences (game losses) for not adhering to a schedule, which is not at all what we have. The previous tourny relied on each individual to be professional and reliable and clearly that did not happen and due to the lack of a rigid schedule there is/was nothing we could do about it from an administrative standpoint.
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