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Post by polyrhythm on Jan 24, 2015 19:10:48 GMT
I have been thinking a lot about the great thread started by ursinity about MMR and thought of this game.
The idea is if you learn a specific skill in dota, it will raise your MMR a certain amount. I made a list of things that I've learned since I started and put estimations on MMR value.
For example:
You are a 1000 MMR player. If you learn how to Double-pull, you are now essentially a 1100 MMR player!
Stacking jungle: 50 MMR
Stacking and farming ancients: 50 MMR
Pulling: 0 MMR
Stacking and pulling: 100 MMR
Double pulling: 200 MMR
Carrying a TP: 100 MMR
TPing to support teammates: 100 MMR
TPing to escape: 100 MMR
Drafting a balanced team: 200 MMR
Counter picking: 50 MMR
Smoke ganking: 100 MMR
Warding for vision: 200 MMR
Warding to block camps: 50 MMR
Counter-warding: 50 MMR
Knowing where to put sentries to free up blocked pull camp: 50 MMR
Carrying sentries or dust for invis heroes: 150 MMR
Rotating to gank: 100 MMR
Staying out of enemy vision: 100 MMR
Last hitting under tower: 75 MMR
Taking Roshan: 100 MMR
Which skills do you think are over/undervalued? What do you agree with? What is missing from the list?!
Thanks!
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Post by ursinity on Jan 24, 2015 21:43:31 GMT
Game sense and pure mechanical skill makes arguably the biggest difference in skill/success/mmr, that's something which is hard to work into a computational model like this one.
Knowledge of proper farming cycles for 100 MMR
Mechanical skill is probably worth upwards of 1000 MMR tbh, maybe 1500-2000.
Knowing how to zone as a support = 250 MMR
Knowing when and how to gank as a mid = 250-500 MMR
Juking = 100 MMR
Looking at your minimap often and drawing conclusions from it = 250 MMR
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Post by joythief on Jan 26, 2015 19:36:52 GMT
I feel like there are so many things that go into this.
For example, I can honestly say that I'm terrible at counterpicking and using items that are outside the "normal" build. I see players that are 1000 MMR behind me that can totally stomp me in those two categories. Quite honestly, it's embarrassing. But that raises the question of how am I 1000 MMR ahead of them? (I'm not gloating about my 2400 MMR in any way here. I'm not proud.)
I'm mediocre at positioning, mediocre at warding in the right place, mediocre at farming, bad at juking, bad at double pulling etc. My mechanical skill is probably slightly above average since I've been gaming aggressively for 20 years, but that can't be the only reason.
But I am great at putting the team's interest ahead of my own.
I pick a hero the team needs, not the one that I've predetermined that I'm playing, I carry TP's, I communicate constantly, I let the guy with the Bottle get Runes, as a support, I don't steal last hits and I will die for my carry if necessary, I buy wards and dust, and do everything I can to help the team.
If I wasn't focused on helping the team, I feel like my MMR would be in that 1K range. So is it worth 1400 MMR to care first and foremost about your team? I don't know the answer to that but I absolutely know that if you're frustrated with your MMR but you quick pick hard carries, play a support as a carry, mute your whole team, or don't play the role the team needs, your MMR will probably stagnate or drop off completely. It's a team game and without realizing that, no matter how high your mechanical skill or understanding of the game may be, you will eventually peak well before you need to.
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Post by ursinity on Jan 26, 2015 21:59:56 GMT
MMR is solely judging your ability to win games, it factors in everything NOT just individual skill. Being able to communicate well, picking well, and any number of other non-mechanical skills are taken into account. People place too much value on MMR as a skill rating when in actuality it's at best a vague representation of how well you play and understand the game. Plus, as I always say, it's so easy to inflate that its hard to judge
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Post by fafnir on Feb 27, 2015 15:34:34 GMT
I think the biggest thing I've noticed lately that is probably a 250+ point MMR swing is how to position for a team fight or high ground siege. Supports or counter-initiators need to stand near the T2 hill to be out of hook or fissure or whatever range. But you need to be focuses on when the Chrono, or Blink comes to move in and reset the fight or counter.
The number of times a support with a stun is right clicking a tower right next to their carry when the enemy team has an axe or Magnus is mind boggling to me.
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Post by mistablue on Mar 2, 2015 20:34:08 GMT
Ever since 6.81/2, highground defense has been crazy important, so I'd say it could have an even greater impact than 250+/- MMR.
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Post by alwaysactive on Apr 20, 2015 11:58:27 GMT
MMR is solely judging your ability to win games, it factors in everything NOT just individual skill. Being able to communicate well, picking well, and any number of other non-mechanical skills are taken into account. People place too much value on MMR as a skill rating when in actuality it's at best a vague representation of how well you play and understand the game. Plus, as I always say, it's so easy to inflate that its hard to judge I agree that MMR is judging your ability to win games, but I don't agree that it's overvalued. I see/hear about people in the sub 3k range place way too much emphasis on picking elaborate lane combos and other trickery when in reality they would contribute much more to a team by focusing on solid picks appropriate for their mechanical skill level. |
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Post by ursinity on Apr 21, 2015 4:32:26 GMT
MMR is solely judging your ability to win games, it factors in everything NOT just individual skill. Being able to communicate well, picking well, and any number of other non-mechanical skills are taken into account. People place too much value on MMR as a skill rating when in actuality it's at best a vague representation of how well you play and understand the game. Plus, as I always say, it's so easy to inflate that its hard to judge I agree that MMR is judging your ability to win games, but I don't agree that it's overvalued. I see/hear about people in the sub 3k range place way too much emphasis on picking elaborate lane combos and other trickery when in reality they would contribute much more to a team by focusing on solid picks appropriate for their mechanical skill level. I see your point, however thinking about mmr rigidly in terms of "this person is 2250, i'm 2500, im better than them they should listen to me" is prevalent in the overall dota community. I prefer to think of MMR in ranges of around 500 to approximate a player's skill level. Additionally, my point still stands that it's alarmingly easy to inflate your MMR through any number of means making MMR an unreliable stat (i.e. spam 3 heroes, go up 1k mmr even though youre not of overall comparable skill to other people in that mmr bracket). |
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Post by alwaysactive on Apr 21, 2015 21:57:28 GMT
I definitely agree with the brackets, it's not like 50 MMR makes somebody a 'clearly better player'. Interestingly, it seems that not listening to teammates or being overly bossy happens at most levels of play, but it doesn't necessarily hinder people from being really good at dota (but maybe it hinders them from being great? idk). I still find constructive communication with teammates a definite plus!  But I don't know, if somebody is great with 3 heroes and it wins a lot of games, I actually think they're good. It comes down to contributing to a winning team in the end, and if the narrow hero pool is not a problem to winning. Of course once we get into organized team play, that might require a broad hero pool in order to play what the captain feel is best for the team. But I guess that's a different level of play from the 3k range (only based on personal experience). |
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Post by ursinity on Apr 24, 2015 16:55:59 GMT
People being jerks and not listening or flaming certainly happens at all levels of play, I can assure anyone of that unfortunately! Being "good" at dota (if there is such a thing) relies on many factors, not just mechanical or strategic skill; to be a "good" player you need to be able to communicate with your team well and, overall, learn to work on a team, as both as a follower and a leader, since dota is not a single-player game even if you're hard carrying or midding and feel isolated from other members of the team.
I'm of the mindset that if you are a spammer, someone who only plays a relatively small set of heroes (imo anything less than 10) in ranked play you can never become truly "good" at dota (again, assuming that there is such a thing). You certainly may become good, even expert, at those heroes or that role but since you don't have the breadth of experience of knowledge of the other 90+ heroes and the other roles you're certainly inferior overall to another player with a wider breadth of knowledge and experience. Additionally, if you only play a small selection of heroes or 1 or 2 roles you're going to run into significant roadblocks in that you're incapable of playing other roles and heroes at an adequate level for your MMR bracket.
For example:someone in 4500 MMR who only plays 1 role carries joins a game, hovers over their carry of choice, team instant locks 3 hard farm-requiring cores. What does this person do? do they attempt to pick yet another carry since thats all they play? do they pick a support? if they pick a support and havent played support in ranked since 3200 MMR their team is already hugely behind simply because that player is one-dimensional and dota is a multi-dimensional game
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Post by fafnir on Apr 24, 2015 19:07:56 GMT
People being jerks and not listening or flaming certainly happens at all levels of play, I can assure anyone of that unfortunately! Being "good" at dota (if there is such a thing) relies on many factors, not just mechanical or strategic skill; to be a "good" player you need to be able to communicate with your team well and, overall, learn to work on a team, as both as a follower and a leader, since dota is not a single-player game even if you're hard carrying or midding and feel isolated from other members of the team. I'm of the mindset that if you are a spammer, someone who only plays a relatively small set of heroes (imo anything less than 10) in ranked play you can never become truly "good" at dota (again, assuming that there is such a thing). You certainly may become good, even expert, at those heroes or that role but since you don't have the breadth of experience of knowledge of the other 90+ heroes and the other roles you're certainly inferior overall to another player with a wider breadth of knowledge and experience. Additionally, if you only play a small selection of heroes or 1 or 2 roles you're going to run into significant roadblocks in that you're incapable of playing other roles and heroes at an adequate level for your MMR bracket. For example:someone in 4500 MMR who only plays 1 role carries joins a game, hovers over their carry of choice, team instant locks 3 hard farm-requiring cores. What does this person do? do they attempt to pick yet another carry since thats all they play? do they pick a support? if they pick a support and havent played support in ranked since 3200 MMR their team is already hugely behind simply because that player is one-dimensional and dota is a multi-dimensional game TLDR Wazoo is a worse player than Roland is all I got out of this  |
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