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Post by ursinity on Jan 14, 2015 17:13:19 GMT
Since the lack of MMR growth comes up constantly on the podcasts between Roland, Cyphus, Nomo and Ez I thought it'd be productive to mention my thought on why that is. Though you may be getting better as a player at your MMR bracket, the average skill for the bracket is also growing, which is why people stagnate in brackets. The way to gain MMR (without inflating) is to outpace the growth of other players in your bracket. It's easy to think "i'm getting better my MMR should be higher!" but everyone else is thinking that too and improving as a community.
Also: if you're frustrated by not gaining MMR just adjust the way you approach ranked matchmaking in party or solo! But that's a long discussion for another thread lol
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Post by ezmrcz on Jan 15, 2015 10:46:22 GMT
Those are great insights Sinity! Basically I am running into the realization that the community is further outpacing me than it was origianlly. F**kKIN sucks  THE SLIDE continues! Lost 2, won 1 tonight. We shall try it again tomorrow! |
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Post by joythief on Jan 15, 2015 14:57:52 GMT
I have some thoughts on this too, and this may only be my experience, but I thought I'd share anyways.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying I don't do all of these things. I read this thread so far and sat back and thought about it and this is the product of that. It is honest self-reflection.
My ranked performance is always worse in 5 stacks as opposed to playing with 2 or 3 in a party. I feel like this is a product of 2 major things. The first problem starts before the first creeps spawn. Team composition. Often, I feel like in a 5 stack, we focus so hard on countering the other team's picks, that we don't worry about having a strategy or any synergy on our team. Building your whole team around countering another team is basically committing to playing defensively. I feel like we need to have an offensive strategy that we can make small adjustments to if the other team counters us. So, before the game starts or maybe even before we queue, we should discuss if we're going for teamfight, push, rat doto, etc. Build a team around that and have a few different combos so you can switch it up. 90% of the time, the other team is going to take their hard carry last so you can't counterpick the #1 anyways. Just be smart when you make your 3rd or 4th pick and try to counter the other team so far, but also fit into your team strategy. This happens in all ranked games, but I feel like it's way more crucial in 5 stacks, simply because the other team is also a 5 stack and if they outdraft you, the communication that naturally occurs in a 5 stack will make it difficult to beat them. We've all watched tons of pro games and it's easy to be like "Get this draft over with so I can watch Arteezy get triple kills with Shadow Fiend", but I feel like we should start watching and learning draft strategies.
The second reason I feel like I lose more in 5 stacks is more gameplay oriented. Rotation and Town Portal Scrolls. Again, I'm guilty of these things too. The first part is that I feel like we don't often make carrying TP's a priority. A TP is more important in your sixth slot than that iron branch for your wand and most other items. Or, we just don't have one in our inventory. I've been trying to get better at this. If a teammate calls for help and your lane is on your tower and you can't get to side shop, your hard carry could die in the safe lane and lose gold, and give the enemy experience, making the rest of the laning phase very very shitty. No one likes being the #1 and being behind in farm. That's bad news. I feel like comebacks are real, but the laning phase is crucial for the hard carry. The second part is kind of related. I feel like my team is traditionally reactive rather than proactive when it comes to grouping up. The other team nearly always starts to group up first. This usually results in one lane getting ganked and losing a tier 1 tower. The shift in gold and xp can start a snowball effect for the other team, especially if we don't react fast enough. I think as soon as our team levels skills that allow us to secure kills, we should group up. Push the offlane up to the tower, fall back and TP to safe lane and secure a kill or two.
I don't know if this is right. There are other things I feel we could all do better, like jungle usage and whatnot, but this is what I come up with from honestly assessing my own weaknesses and the 5 stacks I've been part of lately. Feel free to disagree with/expand on my thoughts. Also, this is not a sideways attempt to call anyone out or anything like that. I love everyone I play with. Please don't read this the wrong way if you've been in a 5 stack with me lately and you did any one of these things I'm talking about. I did it too and that's why it was easy for me to identify when I had a little self-reflection time. If it's a problem for me, I assume others may have the same issues and maybe we can figure it out together and qualify for TI7.
This is way longer and sounds more smug than I ever wanted. Sorry. Please respond and tell me I'm totally wrong and there's something way easier I can do to be better.
<3
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Post by ursinity on Jan 15, 2015 15:52:24 GMT
1.)So, before the game starts or maybe even before we queue, we should discuss if we're going for teamfight, push, rat doto, etc. Build a team around that and have a few different combos so you can switch it up. 2.)the communication that naturally occurs in a 5 stack will make it difficult to beat them. We've all watched tons of pro games and it's easy to be like "Get this draft over with so I can watch Arteezy get triple kills with Shadow Fiend", but I feel like we should start watching and learning draft strategies. 3.)The first part is that I feel like we don't often make carrying TP's a priority. A TP is more important in your sixth slot than that iron branch for your wand and most other items. Or, we just don't have one in our inventory. 4.)No one likes being the #1 and being behind in farm. That's bad news. I feel like comebacks are real, but the laning phase is crucial for the hard carry. 5.)I feel like my team is traditionally reactive rather than proactive when it comes to grouping up. The other team nearly always starts to group up first. This usually results in one lane getting ganked and losing a tier 1 tower. The shift in gold and xp can start a snowball effect for the other team, especially if we don't react fast enough. 6.)I think as soon as our team levels skills that allow us to secure kills, we should group up. Push the offlane up to the tower, fall back and TP to safe lane and secure a kill or two. I've highlighted a few things I thought were particularly valuable from your post (which was great, by the way) and numbered them for organization's sake. 1.) I agree with this wholeheartedly, and it's a big reason why i don't like to queue in 5 stack ranked. In 5stack ranked you have to assume the other team is coming with their tryhard MMR-farming strategies, so just going in and winging it is bound to lose you MMR by the boatload. Drafting while queueing over those ~4 minutes is way easier and better than rushing to pick during the actual pick phase, it's a huge advantage and i'd almost guarantee anyone who plans more will gain more MMR overall. 2.) Yet another problem I have with 5 stack ranked is that you have no clue whether you're going up against a group of 5 that constantly play together and know eachother's playstyles and hero competencies well or if you're going against (as is common in DotP) 5 relatively random people just having fun. Drafting / Picking is very difficult without an approximate knowledge of your teammates and your ability to communicate as a team, if you're on the latter side of my aforementioned 2 types of stacks you're immediately at a huge disadvantage. 3.) Carrying TP's is basic DotA 101 and it's a very easy improvement to make on your play, if you're caught without a TP you're doing something wrong. I can't stress enough how important TP's are for every single aspect of the game, whenever you stop at a side shop or go back to base make sure to leave with a TP; a core problem I see is that people prioritize an offensive item on their 1-slot carry instead of a TP and then either die because they can't TP out or your team gets raxxed because the carry is off farming and can't react fast enough. You're better off have 4 slots, boots and a TP than that last offensive item (that's generally why you see people pick up BoT's as their 5th slot instead of their 6th) 4.) Mechanical issues and a lack of understanding of farming cycles (farming lane + jungle efficiently, knowing when to farm either, knowing how to alternate) is the #1 problem, in my opinion, with 1-slot carry players and offlaners (since they should be accessing enemy jungle in most cases, particularly on radiant offlane). Go into single-player games and practice! Single-player games are extremely helpful, and being good mechanically at farming makes the world of difference. 5.) This point comes back to a lack of communication and game sense, something that'll improve with people you play with more often and just playing more games in general to develop your game sense. 6.) This strategy may work in some games but there's no single "push this, then this, then this, then win" strategy for DotA, developing strategies based around your team comp and the enemy's strategy (which you should be able to approximate from their team comp) is a key part of team play and something that comes with experience from both playing games and learning from watching pro games (i.e. EG drafts DP, Lycan first 2 picks so one can assume they're making an agressive mid-game push comp) Excellent post overall, glad we're using the forums for discussion like we're supposed to! |
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Post by fafnir on Jan 16, 2015 16:45:38 GMT
5 stacks are tough to win with because your opponent on the average is better.
Also if you want to win as a five stack its important to have two people willing to support or at least buy wards and then transition to core if you're 4 coring pub style with a hard support 6. The amount of times I've five stacked and no one will support is greater than when I'm solo queuing. Having a common vision of what you're going to do is necessary in a 5 stack if you want to win.
I have found myself rage spaming "we need wards" and "I'm buying flying courier" more in DotP five stacks than I have in solo games the past few months. 5 or 6 minute flying chickens is a symptom of this overall sort of problem. Funny thing is that this doesn't happen during inhouses, but during actual matchmaking games where people aren't as try hard or play greedier. This could be because my solo games are 3kish and DoTP games vary more too.
I think the most important part of getting better MMR is setting goals to actually improve at. Just playing games without a focus will gain you experience, but it takes time and thought to process that experience into something useful. Small goals works wonders in improving faster:
1. Stacking proberly
2. Harassing properly
3. Connecting pulls
4. Blocking
5. Last hitting
6. Lane Equilibrium management
Those are all concrete things you can work on easily. Broader goals are tougher but probably more important.
1. Attitude (my current focus)
2. Positioning in lane and teamfights
3. Farming patterns
4. Game sense of when you can push, take rosh, or other timing windows.
5. Being wiling to learn, being humble.
I can't tell you how many times I heard good advice from myself, Joe, Ursinity, and Gorgon blown off by people who want to climb. If that's your attitude during games you're not going to improve as a player.
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Post by fafnir on Jan 16, 2015 16:55:00 GMT
Another issue with 5 stacks is its hard to win when skill is imbalanced and your weaker players are only comfortable playing cores. This can cripple a mixed skill party. I strongly believe everyone should understand and be able to play support effectively. Great support play can create space for cores to get their items and timings but its easy for things to fall apart if their respective core heroes are more skilled with a few deaths, missed pushes, or just a failure to farm with the space you're given.
Prior to joining this community in my prior groups I played support around 50% of the time due to preferences of other players to always play cores. That definitely helped me become a much better player. Importantly playing a support isn't just picking a rubick or a lion, you have to play like it. "I can't buy wards because I need to finish my "urn, arcanes, magic wand" is bad. As is not having a TP after about a minute, but that goes for everyone.
Sometimes supports have big items you want to prioritize on them, blink for a lion or 4 position tide. But that's a team decision and then the 5 needs to be really unselfish.
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Post by joythief on Jan 16, 2015 21:15:49 GMT
Thanks for your input Fafnir. Good insight. It's awesome to see other people adding to this thread. I feel like with the right participation, this could be one of the best discussions we've had on here.
Like Ursinity said, it's awesome to see some good discussion on here and people not afraid to admit their faults.
Good stuff.
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Post by ursinity on Jan 17, 2015 5:09:22 GMT
Setting clear goals and focusing makes a world of difference whether it's in bot games (imo the best for mechanical practice) or pub games. It's difficult and growth-stunting to just play randomly and assume you're getting better in a general sense, you're absolutely better off focusing on one thing or the other!
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Post by Vix on Jan 18, 2015 23:21:25 GMT
So here's my quick thoughts on getting stuck in low-ish MMR.
I know I've heard about those 5k players who take a 1k MMR account and make it into lets say 3k or 4k. Then people argue "oh theres no such thing as a trench because look, this guy made it out"
But I feel that if you think you have reached a 2k or 3k skill level you still can't and wont be able to raise your MMR out of your calibrated 1k because even though you're better than what your MMR is at, you'r still not a 4k or 5k player that can get past obstacles that are out of your hands, like teammates feeding, or no supports/wards/cour/etc.
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Post by ursinity on Jan 18, 2015 23:52:22 GMT
So here's my quick thoughts on getting stuck in low-ish MMR. I know I've heard about those 5k players who take a 1k MMR account and make it into lets say 3k or 4k. Then people argue "oh theres no such thing as a trench because look, this guy made it out" But I feel that if you think you have reached a 2k or 3k skill level you still can't and wont be able to raise your MMR out of your calibrated 1k because even though you're better than what your MMR is at, you'r still not a 4k or 5k player that can get past obstacles that are out of your hands, like teammates feeding, or no supports/wards/cour/etc. "I'm in the trench" is, in my opinion, a mental state and/or an excuse for stagnation. Sure, when you're in those low MMR games there tends to be more terrible players that throw the game, however those players exist on both teams so that "trench" isn't inhibiting you any more than the other team. You'll hear about "the trench" from people in almost every bracket below 4k from players who think they're better than their MMR. At the end of the day DotA is about doing what you can to win with the team you're given, and while sometimes you just get screwed, the more games you play the more accurately depicted you are by your MMR. It's frustrating playing in low brackets with players who are bad, but the other team has just as many players with weaknesses that you can take advantage of. TL:DR: having a defeatist attitude like "oh im in the trench thats why i cant get above Xk MMR" isn't helping anyone, least of all yourself. Also, the other team in "the trench" is going to be, on average, just as awful as yours may be. |
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Post by Vix on Jan 19, 2015 1:39:11 GMT
But someone who is 5k MMR is gonna have an easier time getting out of 1k than someone who is 2k or 3k. Right?
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Post by ursinity on Jan 19, 2015 2:21:21 GMT
Well yeah obviously a better player is going to have an easier time winning games in that bracket but that's beside the point, it's not as though you have to be 5k to get out of that trench, it just makes it easier if you're ridiculously more experienced or just better.
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Post by fafnir on Jan 19, 2015 14:48:03 GMT
Well yeah obviously a better player is going to have an easier time winning games in that bracket but that's beside the point, it's not as though you have to be 5k to get out of that trench, it just makes it easier if you're ridiculously more experienced or just better. If you're truly a 2k or 3k play then you'll win enough games to climb to that MMR. It will just take a much larger sample of games to climb. Usually when people have gotten better, but are still rather inconsistent is when they feel they're stuck in the "trench". Or when their frequent picks are carries that need babysitting and so its hit or miss if they get that. You can have xk technical skills and still be a feedlord. |
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Post by mistablue on Jan 19, 2015 21:07:16 GMT
Ursinity's first point is totally true. I think Aui2000 mentioned that in one of his videos? I never thought about it that way until he said it. But it's totally true. Better guides, more-informed players watching more professional games, and a more mature scene will naturally lead to a better player base. This reminds me of people who used to play Starcraft 2 and were in like Diamond league, then they come back to play again like a year later and they can barely make it past Gold league because A. the meta has shifted and B. the players have refined their skills.
Getting better, for me at least, has been all about attitude. Once the scapegoating stops, you have a much better shot at critical self-assessment. It sounds obvious but how many times have we all passed off a bad game as someone else's fault? Think of all that time you spend telling others what they did wrong! IMO it's this idea that puts your improvement ahead of the curve.
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Post by ursinity on Jan 19, 2015 21:17:03 GMT
Ursinity's first point is totally true. I think Aui2000 mentioned that in one of his videos? I never thought about it that way until he said it. But it's totally true. Better guides, more-informed players watching more professional games, and a more mature scene will naturally lead to a better player base. This reminds me of people who used to play Starcraft 2 and were in like Diamond league, then they come back to play again like a year later and they can barely make it past Gold league because A. the meta has shifted and B. the players have refined their skills. Getting better, for me at least, has been all about attitude. Once the scapegoating stops, you have a much better shot at critical self-assessment. It sounds obvious but how many times have we all passed off a bad game as someone else's fault? Think of all that time you spend telling others what they did wrong! IMO it's this idea that puts your improvement ahead of the curve. Yeah for the record anything I say that sounds smart there's like a 90% chance im just regurgitating stuff Aui_2000 says cause he's amazing. As I tweeted earlier to Cpt_Silverfox you'll never improve if you approach a loss with the mentality "my team was S**t", you need to be critical of your own play and think through where you could have played better and what decisions were poor (i.e. i built a Daedalus 2nd item on Faceless when I could've built an MKB to counter the enemy PA) to really improve. General positivity and confidence never hurts as anyone who plays on my teams in inhouses should be painfully aware! |
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THE SLIDE continues! Lost 2, won 1 tonight. We shall try it again tomorrow!
